Quora:为什么白左没有影响中国和俄罗斯? [美国网评]

中国和俄罗斯是截然不同的两个国家。俄罗斯是欧洲主流价值观中的右派。因为自从九十年代起,俄罗斯便被贫困和外界的羞辱所折磨。因此俄罗斯人大都是民族主义者。人们为什么要坚持民族主义呢?嘿,你要知道,苏联解体的时候可没多少人对俄罗斯伸出援助之手。不仅如此,欧洲人始终认为“最好的北极熊就是死掉的北极熊。”所以俄罗斯人用民族主义的情绪来加以应对,包括复兴东正教以及恐同,这些全都有同一个核心,那就是俄罗斯是俄罗斯人的俄罗斯。因此左派会被视同导致俄罗斯衰落,所以没人喜欢左派



Why hasn't leftist idiocy affected countries like China and Russia?

为什么白左对中国或者俄罗斯的影响不大? 

【以下我们看美国网友的评论】

Robin Daverman, World traveler
China and Russia are entirely different. Russia is to the right of mainstream Europe, because she’s been humiliated and impoverished since the 90’s, so there’s full-blown Russian Nationalism. People hang on to Russian nationalism because, hey, it’s not like anybody else extended much of a helping hand after the USSR collapsed, is there? More like “a good bear is a dead bear”, isn’t it? So you get full-blown nationalism as a response - from the revival of Eastern Orthodox religion to homophobia, it’s all about Russia for Russians. Thus the Left is identified with the decline of Russia, and nobody wants that.

中国和俄罗斯是截然不同的两个国家。俄罗斯是欧洲主流价值观中的右派。因为自从九十年代起,俄罗斯便被贫困和外界的羞辱所折磨。因此俄罗斯人大都是民族主义者。人们为什么要坚持民族主义呢?嘿,你要知道,苏联解体的时候可没多少人对俄罗斯伸出援助之手。不仅如此,欧洲人始终认为“最好的北极熊就是死掉的北极熊。”所以俄罗斯人用民族主义的情绪来加以应对,包括复兴东正教以及恐同,这些全都有同一个核心,那就是俄罗斯是俄罗斯人的俄罗斯。因此左派会被视同导致俄罗斯衰落,所以没人喜欢左派。

China is on a different wavelength vis-a-vis the left of mainstream Europe, actually. China views the European La Gauche (politique) as being terribly misguided, because all the social issues that La Gauche are fighting for are essentially the same type of stuff as a woman demanding the right for a man to hold the door open for her. Sure, you may get it if the man is polite or compassionate, but it’s a gift. A gift that can be taken away when the circumstances change. The real La Gauche, in China’s view, should be the ones who are teaching all people how to open the doors themselves. Basically, the government’s job is to enable all people to be educated, capable, and productive so that they can make their own living and stand on their own two feet. They won’t need your gift. You will want to be polite to them, because you need them.

实际上中国的观点同欧洲主流左派的想法是不同的。中国认为欧洲的左翼被严重误导了。因为欧洲左翼们所奋斗的几乎所有社会目标在本质上都是一样的。举个例子,男性需要为女性提供工作机会来实现男女平等。在欧洲人眼里,这代表了男性的礼貌和同情心。但在中国人眼里,这其实只是一个男人给女人的“礼物”。而且如果环境变化了,男人可以随时收回这个礼物。中国人心中的真正的左翼,其实是那些真正的向别人展示如何自己赢得机会的人。因此,政府的基本职责就是确保每个公民能够接受教育,获得才干,拥有生产力。从而使得人们能够靠自己来养活自己。他们不需要你的礼物,你将不得不对他们以礼相待,因为你需要他们的才华。

So do you think you can make a living by smoking pot or sleeping with your same-sex partner? No? Well then those things don’t interest the Chinese government right now. The Chinese government is into free education so people can get higher-paying jobs, building infrastructure so that even people in remote provinces have a chance to make something to sell to the whole wide world. There are tens of thousands of “anti-poverty teams” going to the poorest places, places with literally nothing but rocks, sometimes stay there for 3 years, try out everything - can you grow mushrooms? Fruit trees? raise goats and sheep? try eco-tourism? Move to some other place with better infrastructure, education, and higher-paying jobs? … until they help the local people figure out a way to make money! What, do you think hundreds of millions of Chinese people just wake up one day and suddenly get higher-paying jobs? Really? Why didn’t that happen to you? Why do these good things don’t happen to people in other countries on such a scale? You think?

所以你想靠着自己是个同性恋或者毒瘾患者就让政府来养你?那我告诉你中国政府对这事儿可不感兴趣。中国政府此时正忙着提供免费教育,让人们因此而能找到更高收入的工作。中国政府正忙着基础设施建设,让那些身处最偏远地方的中国人可以把自己的货物卖到全世界。数以万计的扶贫小组此时正在前往中国最贫困的地方,这些地方有的除了石头啥也没有。他们有时候会呆三年,使出浑身解数来扶贫。你能种蘑菇吗?果树呢?要不养些山羊和绵羊?或者搞一搞生态旅游?通过移民来实现脱贫?教育或者提供更高收入的工作?......这些扶贫小组会一直坚持下去,直到当地的老百姓能够实现脱贫!你以为那些上千万的中国人都是怎么富裕的?难不成是某天一睁眼就发现自己有钱了吗?如果真是如此,这好事儿怎么没掉到你头上?如果如此简单,这么大规模的人类脱贫怎么没在其他国家发生?你想啥呢?

So essentially China considers La Gauche to be sort of misguided. They fight for people to be treated as the Spring Pigs - well fed for no reason, until Christmas and then it’s time for bacon. Five hundred flavors of “let’s have cake now” without teaching people that they need to bake the cake first. Debt for consumption is the same as eating your children’s cake. Rights before Obligation is the same as eating your parents’ and grandparents’ cake. What next?

所以基本上中国人认为欧洲左翼被误导了。欧洲左翼为之奋斗的弱势群体其实被当成了春天的猪-----除了吃饭啥也不用干,直到圣诞节的时候做成培根。各种各样的福利承诺其实都是在寅吃牟粮。负债消费是在吃掉你孩子的福利。只知道享受权利而不懂得承担责任是在吃你得父辈的存粮。但是何以为继呢?

If you are talking specifically about refugees and immigration, China would say, “look, you want to change the world? Then first you have to be factual and realistic, right? We have been absorbing and mixing with all different people for thousands of years, and we have a lot of experience with it.

如果你谈到了移民和难民问题,中国人将会说“你们不是想改变世界吗?那么首先你得实事求是,是不是?我们的民族融合历史有上千年,现在让我来说说我们的经验吧!”

In our experience, it takes a minimum of three generations to integrate a people who WILL inter-marry with us. The first generation can be quite dissatisfied, because they want to have the best of both worlds, like they want the peace and prosperity of their new country, and their privileged social position and the right to look down on others (women or other lower class people) in their original homeland. The second generation tend to have the strongest feeling of “alienation”, because they recognize that they are the “permanent minority” in their lifetime, and they may ascribe every misfortune to “oppression”, so they may become quite hostile to society. Almost all of your terrorists who went around blowing up European cities are second-generation immigrants who felt the Alienation. The third generation, hopefully, will be indistinguishable from others (through intermarrying, education, and employment) and are now just like everybody else. This is with people who will inter-marry. For those who won’t inter-marry, you are talking about many centuries to integrate, at least, OK? Don’t you have the same experience in the Balkans?

以我们的经验来说,对于那些乐意与我们进行民族通婚的族群,至少需要三代人的时间同化他们。第一代人将会完全对我们国家感到不满意。因为他们不仅希望在新的国家拥有最好的权利,而且还要把在母国享有的权利带过来。比如他们想要在本国过的富裕而安详,但如果他们原先的国家允许他们歧视一些人群(比如妇女或者其他低等级的人群),那么他们希望在新的国家依旧有权利这么做。第二代人对这个社会的疏离感是最强的,因为他们意识到自己的一生都是这个国家的少数族群。他们将把自己所有的不幸都归咎于这个社会对少数族群的压迫。因此他们很可能会变得对着社会充满恨意。看看你们那些跑出来在各个欧洲城市搞人体炸弹的恐怖分子吧,他们几乎都是那些对社会感到不满的第二代移民。第三代移民会好很多,由于通婚、教育和就业,他们几乎变得和主流社会的人群没有两样了。当然前提是他们乐意通婚,如果他们不乐意呢?那就意味着同化要进行好几个世纪。看看巴尔干半岛的现状吧!

It’ll be just fine if all it takes is time. But nation’s fortunes come and go. What if your country falls on hard times? Then you have rebelling, separatist movement, treachery, or people just leave, when you really need everyone to pull together and help each other. China had hundreds of those kind of stuff happening in her long history. Not that one shouldn’t help others in need, but that one should have a solid plan of execution, formulate a policy that is good for both the immigrants and the locals, something that you have tested and you know it works. One must be quite selective, and should set aside at least three generations of time to deal with this. If you can’t do that, it’s better to help the unfortunate people with TEMPORARY SHELTER and allow the people to go back to their own homes once the war is over. And the fact is, we are an atheist country. We don’t know how to integrate extremely religious people who won’t inter-marry with us and ‘melt’ into us. And we emphasize fulfilling one’s rights before demanding one’s obligations. So we are not a good fit.

如果这只是一个简单的时间问题的话,那还好办。但国家起起落落,总不会一帆风顺。如果你的国家未来处境艰难呢?那些移民群体便会背叛国家,掀起反叛和分离运动。或者当国家需要众志成城相互帮助时,他们就一走了之。在中国漫长的历史中,这些事情发生的太多了。救难民于水火之中是不够的,你还需要一个好计划,一个规划好的可以执行的政策,这个政策对于本地人和移民来说都是好事情。而且有时候你还需要检验一下这个政策是不是如预期那样。政策要仔细挑选,而且还要预留出三代人的时间去执行。如果你办不到,那么最好还是把这些不幸的人们留在临时避难所里面,当战争结束时,让他们回到自己的国家。事实是,作为一个无神论国家,我们没有办法同化那些拒绝通婚和融入我们的宗教信仰者。我们没办法同化他们,再加上我们特别喜欢把权力置于责任之上,这两者都让移民政策变得不适合我们。

You see, it may actually be much easier to stop the war that caused the mass migration, than hoping to integrate people who won’t inter-marry with you like forever. War costs money and resources. Eventually people run out of those and the war will stop. So you only need a temporary solution to a temporary problem. Also, this is why China is a strong advocate for “non-interference policy”, because even a ram shack country is taking charge of its own people in a way that you don’t want to!

现在知道了吧,对于同化那些永远不会与你通婚的移民者来说,停止中东的战争来终止难民潮就简单多了。战争不会持久,因为迟早人们会花光打仗用的资源和军费。面对难民潮这个临时的问题,我们也只需要一个临时的应对政策。这也是为什么中国坚持不干预政策的原因,因为即使是那些深陷战火的小国家,也同样可以让自己的国民对你造成极大的困扰。

The True Left shouldn’t be starting wars all over the globe in the name of Human Rights with the US. They should be telling the US, Bro, it’s not worth it. Not for you, not for me, and not for the vast majority of the people in that country.

真正的左翼国家不会和美国人一起高举人权大旗来四处挑起战火。这根本不值得。对你,对我,对这个国家的大部分人来说,都不值得。

                     

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