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为何19世纪末20世纪初中国如此虚弱,轻易的被英国和西方击败?(兼论印度) [美国网评]

五毛网 美国 2017年09月10日 来源:龙腾网

quora网友:这主要归咎于满族人力量的衰退。清代中国实质上是满族人的中国,不是所有汉人都有意愿为他们战斗的。此外,清朝相信军事力量胜过经济力量。实际上,中国的真正力量是经济。如果你认为中国失败是因为军事落后,那么为何清王朝会败给了400万人的缅甸呢,那个时候双方的技术差距并不大。    

                                  
Why was China so weak during the 19th century and early 20th centurythat they were humiliated so badly by the British during the Opium War anddefeated so thoroughly by the Western nations during the Boxer Rebellion?

为何19世纪末20世纪初中国如此虚弱,轻易的被英国和西方击败? 


【以下是评论部份】  
1.   Dave CosbyDave Cosby, teacher and student, reader and father
Answered Jan 3, 2015
It was the disparity of technology, specifically military technology aswell as modern military tactics that gave the British a clear advantage.Britain had a professional army of veterans (the army was fighting non-stoparound the world at the time) armed with the best weapons.

这是因为双方的技术水平不一样,新的军事技术和新的战术使得英国具有了明显的优势。英国有一支专业的部队,在那个时期,这支部队征战四方,他们配备了那个时期最好的军事装备.

But I disagree with some of the premise of the question. Britain mostcertainly did not want to colonise China and actively avoided it at times,seeking only bases through which to trade, as money was the blood of theEmpire. Also, skilled diplomacy backed by the use of force was a major tool ofthe British. Of course, the main object of trade was opium. Dreadful stuff.

但是你的前提假设是有问题的,恕我我不能认同。英国绝对不想把中国变为殖民地,英国也尽量避免这样做,金钱是大英帝国的血液,英国只是想寻求贸易基地。此外,以外交为主,军事为辅助,这才是大英帝国惯常做法.当然,贸易的主要目标是鸦片,鸦片是一种非常糟糕的东西。

Also consider that the Chinese leadership and system of governance inthe 19th C was dreadful. The absolute worst. It was, in the language of theday, a plum ripe for picking, as well as (described by Napoleon) a sleepinggiant.So while tactically I may not agree with some of the current Chineseadministration's actions on some minor points, strategically they are pursing avery long term plan to almost perfection. How does China prevent a repeat ofthe 19th C? By doing almost exactly what it is currently doing. 

当然,针对这个问题,我们也要考虑19世纪中国的统治阶层和官僚系统,那个时期,统治阶层是非常糟糕的。中国当时就像是待摘的成熟的李子。正如拿破仑所描述的那样,中国是一个沉睡的巨人。现在我们重新来审视21世纪的中国,尽管今日他们的很多做法我不那么认同,但是从战略上来说,以一个长远的视角来看,中国正在推行的各种计划堪称完美。如果你想问中国怎样才能避免19世纪的事情重演?那么我的回答是——只要继续今天正在做的那些事情即可。

2.   Gwydion Madawc WilliamsGwydion Madawc Williams, Read a lot about history, and note some generalpatterns.
Answered May 11
China in the 19th century was much the same as it had been for the past2000 years. Though the Manchu Dynasty had a racist policy of putting Manchuabove Han and discouraging mixing. It was hard to break asuccessful culture.See also Traditional China Resisted Modernisation, for someof the other reasons.

同过去的2000年相比,中国在19世纪的时候几乎没什么变化。虽然满族统治者的策略是阻碍满汉融合,清王朝采用了种族主义的政策将满族置于汉族之上。但是,想打破一种成功的文化是很不容易的。

3.   Joseph BoyleAnswered Jun 6, 2016
These were completely separate periods. In between, QingChina was allied with Britain, recovered territory from Russia, and had thelargest modern navy in Asia.Treaty of Saint Petersburg (1881) , Beiyang Fleet Estimatesof Qing China abruptly changed from major power to helpless giant with itssurprise defeat in the First Sino-Japanese War of 1894–95, just as theGerman-fueled New Imperialism finished dividing Africa in the Scramble forAfrica of the 1880s and turned to Asia-Pacific.

这个时期可以分为以下几个阶段——清朝与英国结盟。满清从沙皇俄国收复领土。清朝建立了亚洲最大规模的现代化海军。中俄在1881年签订了圣彼得堡条约。在1894年至1895年的第一次中日战争中,清朝建立的北洋舰队意外的遭受惨败,清朝从一个主要的军事力量跌落成泥足巨人。而在19世纪80年代,非洲大局底定,新崛起的德国对非洲瓜分完毕后,德国转向了亚太。

German colonization of the Kiautschou Bay concession in 1898 andpenetration of Shandong stimulated creation of the Boxer movement in Shandongwhich then spread to other areas of North China. 

德国在1898年获得了胶州湾的特许权,然后侵入山东,这激起了山东义和团运动,其后蔓延到了华北。

However the Boxers and their counterproductive tactics of killingforeigners did not have the support of much of the Chinese military. 

但是,义和团杀害外国人,这起到了反效果。他们的做法没有得到中国军队的支持。

The lesson is not to let irrational nationalist or anti-foreign fanaticslead national policy and overextend themselves with unnecessary conflicts thatmost Chinese will not actually support.

义和团失败,这件事的教训就是不要让无理性的民族主义者或盲目排外者引导国家政策,不要让他们肆意扩大力量,绝大多数的中国人不会支持这样做的。

4.   Ze KhongZe Khong, studied Medicine and Healthcare at University of Medicine 2,Yangon (2004)
Updated Dec 10, 2016
Due to decline of Qing /manchus power.Qing china was essentially manchuschina.Not all Han china may have a will to fight for.Moreover Qing dynastybelieve on military rather than economy .In fact the real power of china waseconomy.

这主要归咎于满族人力量的衰退。清代中国实质上是满族人的中国,不是所有汉人都有意愿为他们战斗的。此外,清朝相信军事力量胜过经济力量。实际上,中国的真正力量是经济。

If you claim the losses were due to technologies,why Qing china lost toBurma with 4 millions of populations and more or may be less technologicallyinferior at that time?

如果你认为中国失败是因为军事落后,那么为何清王朝会败给了400万人的缅甸呢,那个时候双方的技术差距并不大。

5.   Thomas MusselmanThomas Musselman
Answered May 11
Non-industrialized countries are at a serious disadvantage in most waysother than total manpower and China was no exception. China’s age as aninventor had long past and it had turned in almost non-stop from the banning offurther explorations. It’s population had crept up over time but peasantryisn’t much use against gunboats.

除了人数更多,中国几乎没有任何优势。非工业化的国家与工业化国家相比,力量是严重失衡的。中国作为创新者的时代已经远去,中国不断的颁布禁止海洋探索的命令。  随着时间推移,中国人口一直都在增长,但是农民在对抗炮舰方面并没有太大的作用。

It hadn’t undergone the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the ScientificRevolution, the Industrial Revolution, all of which were painful in the westbut which entrenched European power from 1492 through WWII; only Japan joinedthe Western club by massive effort and focused choice. 

此外,中国没有经历文艺复兴,没有经历启蒙运动,没有经历科学革命,没有经历工业革命,这些对于西方国家来说都是很痛苦的,但是这些事情确保了西方从1492年一直到第二次世界大战都居于主导地位。亚洲国家只有日本通过艰辛努力后加入了西方俱乐部。

Emperors and mandarin classes focused on ancient literature was notwell-suited to taking on modern life and the challenges of aggressive,trade-hungry foreign powers.You can look at the number of miles of railroadtrack, steel production, or whatever measure you like to look at relativepower. The Qing court thought railroads "clever but useless". 

满清皇帝和官僚集团把注意力放在了古代文学,这并不能很好的适应现代生活,无法应对各种挑战,无法处理外国贸易侵略。你可以对比一下,比如铁路轨道的长度,钢铁制造,或者是任何代表力量的东西,满清都非常匮乏。清廷认为铁路“聪明但是没啥用”。

Add to the lack of material development such backward ideas and you geta country ripe for being pushed around.

满清缺少进步力量,他们思想落后。在这种情况下,只要时机成熟,这个国家就会被列强控制摆布。

6.   John MilneJohn Milne
Answered May 12
In 1793 there was a famous diplomatic meeting between the British andthe Chinese. George MacCartney was sent as an envoy to the Emperor, with theobjective of opening up China to world trade. (At this early stage, opium wasnot the product, just general goods)MacCartney brought with him examples ofBritish manufactures as part of a trade mission.

1793年,中国和英国之间有一个著名的外交会晤。马嘎尔尼作为公使被派往中国,他的使命是让中国对世界贸易打开大门(在此之前,鸦片不是产品,只是作为一般杂货),马格尔尼贸易代表团带来了英国工业产品的样本。

Famously, the Emperor rejected his approach with these words: “OurCelestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks noproduct within its borders. There is therefore no need to import themanufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce.”

这件事情非常出名,皇帝拒绝了他的请求:“天国之内,物产丰盈,无所不有,无需进口外邦商品与我国进行贸易”。

This has been celebrated by Chinese nationalists ever since as anexample of splendid defiance, and of how sophisticated Chinese culture was atthat time.Nothing could be further from the truth.

从那时起,很多中国的民族主义者都对这件事情沾沾自喜,他们惊叹于当时的中国文化是多么的复杂精致。这实在是太讽刺了。

The Emperor’s rejection of outside influence condemned the country tothe humiliation that followed. Manifestly, China was already a long way behindEurope. The British ships sitting in the harbour were evidence enough of that.One day they would demonstrate their massive superiority, following theoutbreak of war.

皇帝拒绝外部影响力的渗透,这使得国家遭受了羞辱。港口停泊的英国船只证明中国已经落后于欧洲非常多了。有一天,在中英爆发战争的时候,这些船只会展示他们的巨大优势。

Some scholars argue that the Emperor understood China’s weaknessperfectly well. That his answer was a strategy, deliberately putting on a braveface. But he still kept China closed from the rest of the world - and this wasa terminal error.

一些学者辩称皇帝完全知道中国的弱点,皇帝故意摆出强者的面孔,他的回答只是一个权宜之计。但是他依然将中国与外部世界隔离起来——这是一个致命的错误。

Today’s China has reversed that mistake and opened up to the world, withenormous benefit to the country.

今天中国向全世界开放,他已经修正了这个错误,这给整个国家带来了巨大的好处。

7.   Banson ChongBanson Chong, Passionate about Dr Suns "Three Principals for thePeople".
Answered Jun 11, 2016
A succession of events resulted in China being so “weak” during thatperiod.
China, started to decline since the early 1800s, due primarily itsfailure to catch up to westerners’ modernized weaponry, and instead followingQianlong Emperor’s inward looking policy initiated in the late 1790s.Japan -went the other way - modernized during the Meiji reformation era.

那个时代很多事件叠加起来导致中国变得如此虚弱。中国遵循的是乾隆开启的内向政策,他们在追赶西方的现代化的兵器方面失败了,这使得中国在19世纪早期开始衰落。日本走上了另外一条路,在明治维新时期实现了现代化。

The ascension of Cixi in the mid nineteenth century accelerated thedecline, as she was a stop and go and stop ruler in terms of adopting policiesto adopt the essential acts of modernization - of which there were plentyopportunities to do so, with the readiness of western powers to trade with China,and the long presence of Jesuits in China, long before the 1850s.

19世纪中期慈禧的崛起加速了中国的衰落。在追赶现代化方面,她动作缓慢,总是走走停停的。原本她是有可能成功的,因为西方的国家都愿意跟中国进行贸易,而且在19世纪50年代之前,中国长期存在耶稣会。

Manchu nobles dominating the palace has long grown lethargic,complacent, corrupt and long lost their former warrior edge, the samecharacteristics that enable their minority race to conquer the much larger andnumerous Han race China.

满洲贵族统治中国已经很久了,他们毫无生气,自大,堕落,失去了他们之前的武士的锋芒,武士精神使得他们能够快速的征服比他们规模大得多,人口多得多的汉族国家。

Cixi, in order to placate the various competing interests, did not ruledecisively, instead ruled with hesitancy - and in numerous cases, spentlavishly on personal aggrandized projects, instead of priority uses such as themodernization of China’s military.
Numerous internal mutineering did not help, the most serious one beingthe Taiping uprising which was eventually put down  by a Han administrator Zheng Guofang.

慈禧为了去怀柔各种利益集团,没有实行铁腕统治,他犹豫不决。她不是优先的去将中国的军队进行现代化,而是在私人项目上大肆挥霍。中国国内的反叛者也起了反作用,最严重的一个是太平天国起义,这次起义最后被汉族的官僚曾国藩所镇压。

Its a bit far fetched to blame the British to force opium down theChinese nostrils. Chinese had by then massively got addicted to the terribledrug. The British at no time forced the Chinese to use the drug by gun point.

责怪英国人将鸦片强加给中国人有点站不住脚,那个时候中国对这种可怕的药物已经上瘾了。英国人绝对没有用枪口去逼着中国人去吸食毒品。

Successive western invasion of China happened simply due to itsinability to defend its interest, even when the invaders were far fewer innumbers, but with far superior military organization and weaponry.

接下来,西方对于中国的入侵仅仅是因为中国无法保护自己的利益,即使入侵者的数量远远的小于它,但拥有远远领先的军事组织和武器装备。

The lesson in my humble opinion is never to make the same inwardarrogant mistakes of the Qing rulers - the false sense of superiority ofChina’s past glories .

以我谦卑的观点来看,绝对不要像清朝统治者那样沉浸在中国过去优越感中,从而犯下错误。

The westerners did a small favour to the nation, as the decline was onlyfor a piddly 150 years or so. Many great nations and civilizations have longfaded and never recovered.

西方帮了中国一个小忙,因为中国只是大约衰落了150年。许多伟大的国家和文明已经永远的消失了,再也没有复兴。

China in the interim, should take note. “China Characteristics”, ifcarried to its full arrogance, just may push it back to the past, as the rapidpace of technology needs openness for all vested nations to fully takeadvantage of.Mr Xi and his advisors seems to think otherwise.

在中国重新崛起过程中,应该谨记一点——”中国特色”如果充满了傲慢,将有可能把他带回到过去。快速进步的技术需要对所有的既定国家开放,只有这样技术才会充分发挥作用。但是,中国目前看起来并不是这样想的。

8.   AnonymousAnswered May 27
As a Chinese I would rather see the Opium War as the enlightenment stageof ancient China. In the late Qing dynasty, China is filled with huge population,widespread poverty and illiteracy, fragile military force and very bad womenrights — a scenario more or less similar to some third-world countriesnowadays. It is always convenient to derive assistance from historical photos:

作为一个中国人,我宁愿将鸦片战争看成是古代中国的启蒙阶段。在清朝晚期,中国充满了巨量的人口,广泛的贫穷和文盲,脆弱的军队,非常糟糕的女权。这种状况多少有点像今天的第三世界国家。我们可以从如下的照片里面找到一些帮助:
  

  

  
As you may have observed, the ancient China in late Qing dynasty wasreally a place full of despair and misery. Can you ever imagine that such animpoverish country with an ignorant government can really win the foreignwars?Compare it with Europe at the same era to see the distinctions:

正如你观察的那样,晚清充满了绝望和痛苦。你能想象如此贫困的一个国家以及他愚昧的政府能够赢得一场对外战争吗?对比一下同时期的欧洲来看一下差距:
  

  

  

  
Also, compare the China in Qing dynasty with modern days:

也来比较一下晚清的中国与现代的中国:

Beijing:北京Shanghai:上海
  
Hong Kong:香港
  
Shenzhen:深圳
  
Nanjing:南京
  
Therefore, I indeed view the Opium war and the military invasion ofWestern Countries as a revolutionary point in Chinese history. It transformedChina from ancient, weak and poor kingdom to a modernized and powerful country.The lesson is that we must build a strong and rich China to defend ourselvesfrom foreign invasions and also to bring prosperity and well-being to allChinese people. Besides, we must adopt a liberal attitude and learn from theWestern world.

因此,我真心认为鸦片战争和西方国家的军事入侵对中国历史具有革命性的意义。这场战争把中国从一个古老的,虚弱的,贫穷的王国变成了一个现代化的强大的国家。鸦片战争的教训是“我们应该建立强大和富裕的中国以便能够阻止外国的入侵,将繁荣和幸福带给所有的中国人”,此外我们应该采取一种开放的态度,并向西方学习。
  
上图(莫卧儿帝国全盛时期地图)
  
上图(马拉塔联盟全盛时期地图)

                     

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