首页 > 美国 > 为什么很多中国人认为成吉思汗是中国人而非蒙古人?他是中国人还是蒙古人? [美国网评]

为什么很多中国人认为成吉思汗是中国人而非蒙古人?他是中国人还是蒙古人? [美国网评]

五毛网 美国 2017年09月11日 来源:龙腾网


Why do many Chinese people consider Genghis Khan as Chinese rather than Mongol? Was he Mongol or Chinese?
为什么很多中国人认为成吉思汗是中国人而非蒙古人?他是中国人还是蒙古人?


【以下是评论部份】

Jeffrey Schweitzer worked at Neurosurgery

Answered 14h ago

The Chinese classify non-East Asians in a special category as “foreigners” 外国人,whereas Koreans Japanese Vietnamese etc. in the “sinosphere” are not viewed in quite the same way. Mongols fall somewhere on the border here. Mongols living in China are one of the 55 officially recognized minority nationalities and thus part of the Chinese family. I don't think these minorities were consistently asked for their opinions. I suspect that old Temujin himself would have been very surprised to learn that he was “Chinese.”

中国人把非东亚人归到一个特别的分类“foreigners”外国人里。而韩国人日本人越南人等这些在“汉字文化圈”内的国家的人则不会被以相同的方式看待。蒙古人正是生活在这汉字文化圈边界的某个地方。居住在中国的蒙古人是55个被官方承认的少数民族中的一个,也是中华民族大家庭的一员。我不认为他们问过那些少数民族是不是也是这么想的。我怀疑老铁(木真)发现自己被定义为“中国人”的时候会不会很惊讶。

I am reminded of an apocryphal story told by Joseph Fletcher whose course on Central Asian history I took in 1975. There are various versions floating around but the gist is that in 1967 before the Cultural Revolution was as yet totally out of hand the People’s Daily published an article celebrating the 800th anniversary of the birth of Chinggis Khan. The article praised him as an authentic Chinese hero whose forward-thinking policies helped promote contact and trade between East and West paving the way for the modern world. The Soviet leadership wrote a strongly-worded protest along the lines of “The Chinese comrades have forgotten how Chinggis Khan and his armies raped pillaged and massacred and for almost three centuries hung as a yoke on the neck of the Russian motherland.” To which the Chinese leadership replied “The Chinese comrades have forgotten none of the great deeds of Chinggis Khan.”



这让我想起了我在1975年时上过的一堂约瑟夫弗莱切关于中亚历史的课程,他当时为我们讲诉了一段真实性存疑的故事。
这个故事流传着各种各样的版本,但主要讲的是1967年在文革变得一发不可收拾之前,人民日报发表了一篇庆祝成吉思汗800周年生日的文章。这篇文章赞扬他是一位真正的中国英雄,他先进的政治理念促进了东西方之间的联系与贸易,为当今世界铺平了道路。苏联的领导层写了一片措辞强硬的抗议,其中包括一段:“中国的同志们已经忘记了成吉思汗和他的军队在俄国的国土是如何屠杀平民和奸淫掳掠的了。他们奴役了我们俄国人将近三个世纪!”    而对此中国领导人回应道:“中国的同志们不会忘记成吉思汗干过的任何伟大事迹。”

Robert Maxwell
Answered Mar 29
回复 Mar 29
Both depending on what criterion you’re using.
这都取决于你使用的是什么标准。


Part of the issue is that “Chinese” tends to be ambiguous in English. In English “Chinese” can mean either “a citizen or individual from the country of China” or it can mean “an ethnic Han.”
这个问题的部分原因是,“Chinese”(中国人)这单词在英语中指代不够明确。在英语中的“中国人”既可以指来自中国的公民或个人,还可以指“汉人”。


Genghis Khan was an ethnic Mongol ruler of a Chinese state. Though he was not an ethnic Han he’s generally considered Chinese as he ruled China.
成吉思汗曾经是一个中国的统治者,他是蒙古族人。虽然他不是汉人,但是他统治过中国,所以大体上被当成中国人。


It’s worth noting that Mongolians are a recognized minority in China and are (theoretically) granted absolute equality with the Han - both are considered technically Chinese.
值得注意的是,蒙古族在中国是公认的少数民族,而且(理论上)与汉族完全平等——严格意义上而言,二者都是中国人。


Hence in this case we’re talking about Nationality-Chinese and not Ethnicity-Chinese.
因此,在这种情况下,我们讨论的是中国的国籍,而不是中国的民族。


Primarily he was Chinese because he was the “founder” of the Yuan Dynasty. The Yuan Dynasty itself was only founded during the rule of Kublai Khan - Genghis Khan’s grandson. However Kublai Khan took the extra step of extending the nominal founding of the Yuan Dynasty to his ancestor Genghis Khan. Due to this Genghis Khan is referred to as 太祖 (“Grand Ancestor”) in the official histories which was a form that signified a dynastic founder - see for instance the Han Dynasty’s 高祖 (“High Ancestor”).
他从原则上讲是个中国人,因为他是元朝的“建立者”。元朝实际上是在忽必烈(成吉思汗的孙子)统治时期才建立的。然而忽必烈更进一步,把元朝名义上成立的时间扩展到他的爷爷成吉思汗统治时的年代。因此成吉思汗在一些正式的历史记载中被人称为太祖(伟大的先祖),象征着他是一个朝代的建立者-就好像汉朝的高祖(高上的先祖)。


In Chinese historiography this wasn’t a new move: it was King Wu of Zhou who overthrew the Shang Dynasty even though it was his father King Wen of Zhou who was regarded as the “founder” of the Zhou Dynasty and thus honored. Depending on who you ask King Wen either a) failed overthrow the Shang because he died too soon or b) refused to rise up because he had pledged not to take up arms but still indirectly assisted his son. This was a famous episode in Chinese history - Cao Cao is reported to have replied to suggestions that he abolish the Han Empire and install himself as ruler with “if I am to found a dynasty let me be King Wen of Zhou” - i.e. “I’m not going to do that but my son can do that then he can say I’m the founder.”
在中国的编史中,这不是一个新的举措;即便推翻了商朝的统治的是周朝的周武王,但是被认定为周朝建立者获得这项殊荣的却是他的父亲,周文王。如果你们要问文王是谁的话,他要吗是因为死太早没有成功地推翻商朝地统治,要吗是他曾经承诺不会拿起武器揭竿而起,但他间接地为自己的儿子提供了很多帮助。下面是中国历史上一段有名的典故--曹操曾经有一次被人提议废掉汉献帝然后自立为王,当时他这样回答:"如果我要建立一个王朝,那么就让我成为周朝的文王吧“ 简而言之, “我不会自立为王,但是我的儿子会这么干。然后他会向天下宣告,我曹操才是这个王朝的建立者。”


So this was a recognized thing to retroactively accept a ruler’s father (or grandfather) as the actual founder of the dynasty. In the case of the Yuan Dynasty there was a philosophical motivation (adherence to the terms of filial piety) a propaganda motivation (framing Kublai Khan as the legitimate successor of Genghis’s empire to the exclusion of other contenders and as such associating himself with his ancestor’s prestige) and a practical consideration that Genghis Khan had laid the political and military foundation that allowed for the founding of the Yuan.
所以说,这种将统治者的父亲或者祖父追溯为正统的王朝创建者的举措是完全可以被认可的。在元朝这事上还存在着一个哲学的动机(孝道)以及一个宣传的动机(宣扬自己是成吉思汗帝国的合法继承人以此达到将自己和其他竞争者区分开来的目的,并将自己和祖父所取得的声望捆绑在了一起)
最后还有一个现实的考虑,毕竟是成吉思汗奠定了创立元朝所需要的政治和军事基础。

Since the Yuan Dynasty was the official successor to the Song Dynasty and claimed the Mandate of Heaven in a translatio imperii from the Song Dynasty the Yuan Dynasty was therefore a recognized Chinese state albeit under the domination and rule of the Mongols.
由于元代是宋朝的正式的继承朝代,并且声称接替了宋朝的天命。因此尽管被蒙古人统治着但是元朝依然可以被看成一个中国的朝代。


And since Genghis Khan was retroactively recognized as the founder (and hence ruler) of a Chinese state he was predictably a Chinese ruler.
而成吉思汗被追溯为一个中国朝代的建立者(和统治者),那么我们自然可以把他看为一位中国统治者。

Larry Park

Answered 16h ago

Genghis Khan (c. 1162 – August 18 1227) born Temüjin was the Great Khan and founder of the Mongol Empire which became the largest contiguous empire in history after his death. He came to power by uniting many of the nomadic tribes of Northeast Asia. After founding the Empire and being proclaimed "Genghis Khan" he launched the Mongol invasions that conquered most of Eurasia. Campaigns initiated in his lifetime include those against the Qara Khitai Caucasus and Khwarazmian Western Xia and Jin dynasties. These campaigns were often accompanied by large-scale massacres of the civilian populations – especially in the Khwarazmian and Western Xia controlled lands. By the end of his life the Mongol Empire occupied a substantial portion of Central Asia and China.

成吉思汗(公元1162-1227年8月18日)原名铁木真是一位伟大的领袖和蒙古帝国的缔造者。在他去世后,蒙古帝国成为了历史上最大的国土相连的帝国。(不加国土相连这个要素的话大英帝国排第一)他通过联合东北亚众多游牧部落的方式来获得权力。在他建立帝国并被宣称为“成吉思汗”之后,他发动了“蒙古人的入侵”并征服了欧亚大陆的大部分地区。他在其一生中发动了无数的战争,其中包括与哈剌契丹、高加索帝国、花剌子模、西夏和金朝的对抗。这些战争往往伴随着大规模的平民屠杀--尤其是在花剌子模和西夏控制的土地上。在他生命的末期,蒙古帝国已经占据了中亚和中国的大部分领土。


The Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan started the conquest with small-scale raids into Western Xia in 1205 and 1207. By 1279 the Mongol leader Kublai Khan had established the Yuan dynasty in China and crushed the last Song resistance which marked the onset of all of China under the Mongol Yuan rule. This was the first time in history that the whole of China was conquered and subsequently ruled by a foreign or non-native ruler.

在1205年和1207年,成吉思汗统治下的蒙古帝国开始了数次对西夏国的小规模突袭。到了1279年,蒙古的首领忽必烈在中国建立了元朝并粉碎了宋朝的最后一丝抵抗,展开了一段蒙古人完全统治整个中国的时期。这也是历史上第一次整个中国都被外来的或者说非本土的民族征服和统治。

Mongol-led Yuan Dynasty was defeated by The Ming dynasty in 1368 then known as the Empire of the Great Ming – for 276 years (1368–1644) . The Ming was "one of the greatest eras of orderly government and social stability in human history" was the last imperial dynasty in China ruled by ethnic Han Chinese.

1368年,蒙古人领导的元朝被明朝推翻。明朝,后被人称为大明王朝,在中国统治了276年之久(1368-1644)它被视为“人类历史上最伟大的朝代之一,有着井然有序的统治阶级和稳定平和的社会”,是中国最后一个由汉人统治的封建王朝。

B.T. Yang Born in china and live in Taiwan

Answered Apr 9

Many of us “consider” something to be a common fact simply we were educated to believe so. Like in the west people were educated to believe that Greco-Roman civilization is the common denominator of all western civilizations even the Germans whose were never a part of the Greco-Roman sphere.

我们中的很多人“认为”某些事情是普遍的真相,仅仅是因为我们接受了那样的教育。就像在西方,人们被教育去相信希腊罗马文明是所有西方人的共通之处。甚至连那些从来都不是希腊罗马帝国一部分的德国人都这么想。

Chinese wish to think that their history is a continuous one without any dynastic interruptions. So they enlisted Mongol rule as a “Yuan” dynasty which in some way is not too far from the truth as the Mongol quickly learned the advantage of ruling the vast territory with the endless supply of bureaucrats through China’s civil examination system. Also Yuan Dynasty could not possibly rule without Han Chinese sophisticated commercial and logistics system that were entirely based on Chinese written language and moral codes. After Mongols were expelled the following Ming Dynasty kept an ancient honorary tradition of composing an official version of the “Yuan History” to commemorate a passing of another Dynasty.

中国人希望他们的历史是延续的,没有任何的断代。所以他们将蒙古人统治的时期命名为“元”王朝。实际上从某种意义上来讲这他们怎么做也没错。因为蒙古人很快就意识到了通过科举制度选拔官员来管理他们那广阔无垠的疆域的优势。此外,如果没有了汉人们成熟的商业和物流体系,元朝也根本没有办法统治好这个巨大的帝国。而这些体系都是建立在中国文字和道德规范的基础上的。蒙古人被驱逐之后,明朝继续保持了一项古老的荣誉传统他们印刷发行了“元史”的官方版本,以纪念一个朝代的逝去。

So you may say Han Chinese adopted Mongols as one of their own. Nothing wrong with it. I thought it was quite a nice gesture.

所以你可能觉得汉族人把蒙古人当成自己人。没错 ,我觉得这是一种很好的姿态。A passing note: Manchu Dynasty was also not a Han-Chinese Daynasty. But It was again also adopted as a part of Chinese history. Nothing wrong with it.

备注:满清王朝也不是汉人统治的王朝,但它也被视为中国历史的一部分,这事也没什么错。

Gwydion Madawc Williams Read a lot about this

Answered Mar 29

A fraud by media Chinese historians.

这是中国历史学者宣扬的谬论。Genghis’s grandson Kublai Khan made himself Emperor of China. Historians then backdated the Yuan dynasty to include the earlier rulers.

成吉思汗的孙子忽必烈自立为中国的帝王,然后历史学家们便把元朝的统治时期往前追溯,把之前的统治者也包括了进去。

Unlike other nomadic conquerors of part or all of China the early Mongols showed no respect for Chinese traditions. Kublai only did so part-way through his reign as Great Khan when his power was being successfully challened by rival Mongols.

不像中国历史的一些前他游牧民族侵略者们,早期的蒙古人并不尊重中国的传统。只有在忽必烈统治的时期,才开始接纳一些中国的传统制度。因为当时忽必烈的权力受到

了其他一些蒙古部族的挑战。

Since the Song Dynasty was by then extinct in the most recognised line it was an opportunity. It does not apply to earlier rulers.

而在当时的宋朝已经灭亡了,所以接纳中国的传统制度是他巩固政权最好的机会。这并不适用于早期的蒙古统治者。
 

Benjamin Marr a perpetual learner

Answered Mar 29

Technically it is not right to consider Genghis Khan as Chinese when he was alive Mongols was a hostile nation that attempted to conquer Song Dynasty China (and they finally succeeded) but many people have such a delusion due to the below reasons.

技术上来讲,把成吉思汗看成一个中国人是不对的。当他还活着时大蒙古国是一个充满敌意并企图征服宋朝时期的中国的国家(最后他们成功了)但因为下面几个原因,人们还是会有这样的错觉:1. Genghis Khan was the founder of Mongol Empire and his grandson? Kublai Khan ended South Song Dynasty China and crowned himself the Emperor of China therefore Genghis Khan was mentioned in History Schoolbooks quite a lot in the section of Chinese History which creates the wrong image that he was a historical figure of China.

1.成吉思汗是蒙古帝国的缔造者,而他的孙子忽必烈终结了南宋的政权并宣称自己为中国皇帝。因此成吉思汗在很多中国历史文献中被提及,这也使人们产生了成吉思汗是中国历史人物的错误印象。2. Inner Mongolia is a province of China and many Mongol people are Chinese citizens exactly the same as the rest so many people forget the fact that there is an independent Mongolian country and a Mongol guy may be technically a foreigner.

2 内蒙古是中国的一个省,而且很多蒙古族都是中国公民。这也让很多人忘记了那里还有一个独立的蒙古国家和一群蒙古族的外国人。3. China has been a multi-ethnic country for a long time Chinese people won't pay particular attention to an ethnically-different guy and regard him as 'Foreigner' as long as he/she looks like East Asian. Korean Mongol all have their own independent country but a Korean or Mongol is very likely to be native Chinese and speak Mandarin better than me.

3中国长时间以来都是一个多民族国家。只要你长的像东亚人,中国人就不会过度地关注你的民族,或者把你当成老外。

朝鲜和蒙古都有自己独立的国家,但是一个朝鲜族或者蒙古族也很可能是一个本地的中国人,说着比我溜的普通话

Anand Nyamdavaa i am mongol

Answered 22h ago

This answer is for mentally thick:

我这回答是给那些思想愚钝的人看到:Fact 1: This is Great wall of China.

真相1:中国的万里长城。

Fact 2: It was built to repel Mongols.

真相2:长城是用来防御蒙古人的。

If Chinggis Khan was Chinese why would Chinese build walls to protect against their leader?

如果成吉思汗是中国人的话,那中国为什么会去建筑长城以抵抗自己的领袖?Alex- Zhang Xin studied at Jilin University

Answered 10h ago

The true is that Genhis Khen isn't Chinese from the GENE or the RACE we can't deny that. But his descendant Kublai Khen gave him a Chinese identity Kublai Khen created Yuan dynasty but he didn't think he is the first emperor Genhis Khen is the real first emperor so Genhis Khen was given a Chinese Miaohao(posthumous title of an emperor) and a Chinese Yihao(other posthumous title of an Chinese emperor) by his descendant so technically you can't blame us his descendant Kublai Khan want himself and his ancient to be Chinese I don't know why mongols arent happy with us what we have done was that we Chinese accepted the fact that they becamed Chinese. In a conclusion he used to be Mongol when he was alive but after he having die he became Chinese that is all. Congratulations to Genhis Khen he was double nationnalities.

成吉思汗在基因和人种上来看的确不是中国人,这一点我们没法反驳。但是他的后裔忽必烈给予了他一份中国人的身份。忽必烈创建了元朝,但是他不觉自己是元朝的首位帝王,成吉思汗才是。忽必烈还给成吉思汗起了中国的庙号(皇帝死后的称谓)和中国的谥号(另一种中国皇帝死后的称谓)所以说原则上来讲你们不应该怪我们中国人,是忽必烈想让自己和他的先辈成为中国人的。我不知道为什么蒙古人对我们那么生气,我们只是接受了他们变成中国人这个事实。最后的结论就是他还活着的时候他是个蒙古人,在他死后他变成了中国人。

好吧,恭喜成吉思汗,他拥有双重国籍。

Sam Raviva

Answered Mar 29

I've never heard anyone say Genghis Khan was Chinese. However many consider the Yuan Dynasty the Khanate created by his grandson Kublai Khan to be Chinese since Kublai moved the capital of the Mongol Empire into modern-day Beijing China and was crowed Emperor of China.

我从来没听谁说过成吉思汗是中国的,不过很多人认为他的孙子忽必烈汗创立的元朝帝国是中国的,原因是忽必烈把蒙古帝国的首都迁到了今天的中国北京,并被加冕为中国皇帝。                    

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